I have a UK company which I ran before I moved to Poland. Having now lived in Poland for a while I figured that I should do something about my residency situation as per my last blog post about Polish residency.
Therefore I spent a long time on the phone to the Inland Revenue back in the UK, and made a couple of visits to ZUS and the Urząd Skarbowy here in Poland.
I decided that I would continue to pay myself from my UK company but I would become a Polish resident employee.
The Inland Revenue said that I could continue to put myself through my pay roll if I wanted (Class X for National Insurance and tax group NT) or I could just take money out of the company against an invoice.
Polish Social Insurance - ZUS
ZUS said that I needed to register my UK company as an employer in Poland and open an "employer account" called a konto płatnik to make social insurance payments. The alternative was to pay the employee (i.e. myself) gross, and have the employee sign a declaration that the employee has the responsibility of paying both the employer's and employee's social insurance payments.
Option 1 - konto płatnik - to do this you have to fill out form ZUS ZPA. But to do that you need a tax number (NIP) from the Urząd Skarbowy. To get the NIP you have to fill out form NIP-2. But because your company is foreign you have to apply directly to Warsaw and enclose certain documentation:
* company documents (such as formation certificate)
* translations by a sworn translator of these documents
* declaration (in Polish) that you are not supplying bank account details becase you do not wish to make use of Polish VAT returns
The Warsaw address for a NIP-2 for a foreign company is:
Drugi Urząd Skarbowy Warszawa Śródmieście
ul. Jagiellońska 15
03-719
Telephone +48 (0)22 5845100 or 831 9194 or 831 9195
There is information about this in English and German on the zus website.
Option 2 - employee pays both employer's and employee's ZUS:
The employee and employer should sign an agreement that the employee takes the responsibility of paying the employer's side of the social insurance payments.
In Polish this is called:
"umowa z pracownikiem o przyjęciu roli płatnika z przedsiebiorstwem nie mającym oddziału w Polsce".
Polish tax - Urząd Skarbowy
This side seems simpler. My understand from what they told me is that my company simply pays the employee a gross salary and the tax bill is determined the following year. Not like the more complicated PAYE system in the UK with different tax codes etc..!
The Polish system is that in February 2009 the employer fills out a PIT-11 form for each employee which shows how much that employee was paid for the 2008 year. The employee then has until April 2009 to pay his/her tax bill.
After going through all this information I decided not to use my UK company to do this afterall - I figured that if the ZUS was going to be hassle then it would be simpler to just open a new company in Poland and have that company pay my ZUS. My Polish company can simply invoice my UK company as necessary to move funds.
My next blog post will be about how to set up a Polish company.
Showing posts with label bureacracy. Show all posts
Showing posts with label bureacracy. Show all posts
17 September 2008
20 August 2008
Getting a British Deed Poll recognised in Poland
There are a number of documents relating to identity in Poland - marriage certificates, birth certificates, passports, identity cards and so on. For everything to do with identity the paper trail starts with a Polish birth certificate.
Therefore if you want to apply for confirmation of Polish citizenship the first thing you need to do as a foreigner is get a Polish birth certificate. However there is a problem if you have changed your name by Deed Poll because the Polish authorities won't recognise it.
What is a Deed Poll?
In the UK changing your name is frighteningly easy. You just write a declaration on a piece of paper that from this day on you want to be known as X. You get a friend to sign it. Done. You can then send this off to your bank, the DVLA, the passport office and so on and go about getting your new name updated on their records. I was shocked at how easy the process was and a little concerned that it could be used by people to get a passport in somebody else's name or for dubious purposes.
I guess this illustrates the main difference between UK and Polish bureaucracy - in the UK things can be done with ease and often via post/internet and the price we pay for that is identity theft. In Poland everything is more difficult, requires permission and must be done in person. Nobody here has ever heard of "identity theft".
I changed my name via Deed Poll a few years ago when I decided to revert my surname back to my Grandfather's original surname (he had changed it to a more English sounding one when he came to the UK after WW2).
UK Birth Certificates
In the UK the process is simple. You start life known as X. This is what is on your birth certificate and it is never changed. You change your name later on to Y but your birth certificate with X on is still valid.
Your true birth certificate is permanently held by the registry office where you were born. Your parents were issued a duplicate when you were born. If you lose it you can buy a new one for £7.
Result: Your passport now says your name is Y but your birth certificate says your name is X. This is a problem in Poland because your documents don't match.
Polish Birth Certificates
Your true birth certificate is held by the Urząd Stanu Ciwilnego. Your parents were issued a "short summary" of this birth certificate. If you change your name it is done by getting a 'decision' from the USC. They then ammend your original birth certificate (there is a space for notations on it). They issue you with a new "short summary" birth certificate with your new name.
Result: Your passport now says your name is Y and your birth certificate now also says your name is Y. Your documents match.
Applying for a Polish Birth Certifcate as a person born outside Poland
As I have described above, your UK birth certificate does not match the name in your passport so the USC consider this as two different people. They won't accept your Deed Poll because it was only validated by a witness and not by a notary or registry office. This is the exact problem I had. I spent a long time meeting with the director of my local USC who confessed that he didn't know what to do and would have to research it. One month and a couple of phone calls to him later he told me to contact the Polish Consulate in London to get from them a document in Polish to say that my name had been changed in accordance with British law.
Polish Consulate London
I put in a few phone calls to the Polish Consulate in London. I eventually got hold of the legal department who told me that what I needed was an "apostille" from the British Foreign Commonwealth Office's legalisation office. I would then need to get that translated into Polish along with my UK birth certificate and then my local USC would accept it.
Getting an Apostille from the FCO
After a quick read on the FCO website I found their document legalisation service. The process costs £33 which covers the £27 fee and £6 for recorded delivery return of documents (to a UK address or abroad). You can do the application either in person of by post. Current backlog for postal applications at time of writing is 1 week. Your Deed Poll first needs to be certified by a UK solicitor or notary. Most high street solicitors will do this for a fee of about £5.
I hope this blog post has been helpful. I am in the middle of getting my Apostille right now (as of 20th Aug 2008). I will update this post if I find out anything new or have any problems. Please leave a comment if this information has been of use, it's nice to know if I am helping or not.
Therefore if you want to apply for confirmation of Polish citizenship the first thing you need to do as a foreigner is get a Polish birth certificate. However there is a problem if you have changed your name by Deed Poll because the Polish authorities won't recognise it.
What is a Deed Poll?
In the UK changing your name is frighteningly easy. You just write a declaration on a piece of paper that from this day on you want to be known as X. You get a friend to sign it. Done. You can then send this off to your bank, the DVLA, the passport office and so on and go about getting your new name updated on their records. I was shocked at how easy the process was and a little concerned that it could be used by people to get a passport in somebody else's name or for dubious purposes.
I guess this illustrates the main difference between UK and Polish bureaucracy - in the UK things can be done with ease and often via post/internet and the price we pay for that is identity theft. In Poland everything is more difficult, requires permission and must be done in person. Nobody here has ever heard of "identity theft".
I changed my name via Deed Poll a few years ago when I decided to revert my surname back to my Grandfather's original surname (he had changed it to a more English sounding one when he came to the UK after WW2).
UK Birth Certificates
In the UK the process is simple. You start life known as X. This is what is on your birth certificate and it is never changed. You change your name later on to Y but your birth certificate with X on is still valid.
Your true birth certificate is permanently held by the registry office where you were born. Your parents were issued a duplicate when you were born. If you lose it you can buy a new one for £7.
Result: Your passport now says your name is Y but your birth certificate says your name is X. This is a problem in Poland because your documents don't match.
Polish Birth Certificates
Your true birth certificate is held by the Urząd Stanu Ciwilnego. Your parents were issued a "short summary" of this birth certificate. If you change your name it is done by getting a 'decision' from the USC. They then ammend your original birth certificate (there is a space for notations on it). They issue you with a new "short summary" birth certificate with your new name.
Result: Your passport now says your name is Y and your birth certificate now also says your name is Y. Your documents match.
Applying for a Polish Birth Certifcate as a person born outside Poland
As I have described above, your UK birth certificate does not match the name in your passport so the USC consider this as two different people. They won't accept your Deed Poll because it was only validated by a witness and not by a notary or registry office. This is the exact problem I had. I spent a long time meeting with the director of my local USC who confessed that he didn't know what to do and would have to research it. One month and a couple of phone calls to him later he told me to contact the Polish Consulate in London to get from them a document in Polish to say that my name had been changed in accordance with British law.
Polish Consulate London
I put in a few phone calls to the Polish Consulate in London. I eventually got hold of the legal department who told me that what I needed was an "apostille" from the British Foreign Commonwealth Office's legalisation office. I would then need to get that translated into Polish along with my UK birth certificate and then my local USC would accept it.
Getting an Apostille from the FCO
After a quick read on the FCO website I found their document legalisation service. The process costs £33 which covers the £27 fee and £6 for recorded delivery return of documents (to a UK address or abroad). You can do the application either in person of by post. Current backlog for postal applications at time of writing is 1 week. Your Deed Poll first needs to be certified by a UK solicitor or notary. Most high street solicitors will do this for a fee of about £5.
I hope this blog post has been helpful. I am in the middle of getting my Apostille right now (as of 20th Aug 2008). I will update this post if I find out anything new or have any problems. Please leave a comment if this information has been of use, it's nice to know if I am helping or not.
18 August 2008
How to get a PESEL
As you may have already noticed in Poland, any time you try and do something (such a open a bank account or get a mobile phone contract) people ask your for your 'Pesel'. Most of the time you don't actually need a Pesel if you argue with them - but of course it's a lot easier if you have one.
What is a PESEL?
A Pesel is an 11 digit identification number partly based on your date of birth. Polish people are assigned one within a couple of months of being born. When my daughter was born here in Poland we simply called the Urząd Miasta when she was 2 months old and they told us it over the phone. For foreigners you get it in the same place where you do your zameldowanie.
A Pesel is not a VAT number, nor is it a tax number (called a 'NIP' number in Poland), nor is it a national insurance number. It is just an ID number.
How do I get my PESEL?
If you are a foreigner (i.e. you don't have confirmation of Polish citizenship) then a pesel can be applied for when you do a zameldowanie for a a period greater than 3 months. But to register for more than 3 months you will need to have got your karta pobytu already which lets you register for 5 years.
When you do your 5 year zameldowanie make sure you explicitly tell them that you want a Pesel. They are supposed to ask you about it but they didn't ask me at all.
I have heard that sometimes they generate the Pesel automatically and some people didn't even know that one had been generated for them. But for me no-one mentioned anything and on checking today they said I don't have one.
Because the procedure is that a Pesel can only be generated when you register, I therefore needed to de-register and re-register (wymeldować and again zameldować). Unfortunately I didn't have my documents with me so I will come back and do this another time. I was told I would receive my Pesel within 10 days of doing this.
Getting a Pesel is very easy to do and doesn't cost anything. It will save you many arguments in public offices and shops. I wish I had known about this a few months ago...
EDIT - 19th Aug 2008:
I just returned form the Urząd Miasta and was told something different - the regular guy was there and he claimed that he did offer me a Pesel and I declined it. I find that hard to believe (why would I decline a Pesel?) but maybe I misunderstood something. He said that it would now be difficult to issue one. After a few phone calls and playing with his computer he said he would delete me, start over again from new and do it. So in the end it was sorted and I didn't have to de-register and re-register. He said I had to return in a week to collect it. I asked if I could just call by phone and he said no. By this time he was getting grumpy so I didn't try and push my luck any further...
What is a PESEL?
A Pesel is an 11 digit identification number partly based on your date of birth. Polish people are assigned one within a couple of months of being born. When my daughter was born here in Poland we simply called the Urząd Miasta when she was 2 months old and they told us it over the phone. For foreigners you get it in the same place where you do your zameldowanie.
A Pesel is not a VAT number, nor is it a tax number (called a 'NIP' number in Poland), nor is it a national insurance number. It is just an ID number.
How do I get my PESEL?
If you are a foreigner (i.e. you don't have confirmation of Polish citizenship) then a pesel can be applied for when you do a zameldowanie for a a period greater than 3 months. But to register for more than 3 months you will need to have got your karta pobytu already which lets you register for 5 years.
When you do your 5 year zameldowanie make sure you explicitly tell them that you want a Pesel. They are supposed to ask you about it but they didn't ask me at all.
I have heard that sometimes they generate the Pesel automatically and some people didn't even know that one had been generated for them. But for me no-one mentioned anything and on checking today they said I don't have one.
Because the procedure is that a Pesel can only be generated when you register, I therefore needed to de-register and re-register (wymeldować and again zameldować). Unfortunately I didn't have my documents with me so I will come back and do this another time. I was told I would receive my Pesel within 10 days of doing this.
Getting a Pesel is very easy to do and doesn't cost anything. It will save you many arguments in public offices and shops. I wish I had known about this a few months ago...
EDIT - 19th Aug 2008:
I just returned form the Urząd Miasta and was told something different - the regular guy was there and he claimed that he did offer me a Pesel and I declined it. I find that hard to believe (why would I decline a Pesel?) but maybe I misunderstood something. He said that it would now be difficult to issue one. After a few phone calls and playing with his computer he said he would delete me, start over again from new and do it. So in the end it was sorted and I didn't have to de-register and re-register. He said I had to return in a week to collect it. I asked if I could just call by phone and he said no. By this time he was getting grumpy so I didn't try and push my luck any further...
23 June 2008
Getting Polish Citizenship
As I have already posted in my blog about getting a karta pobytu, I found out that as I have Polish blood I may well have Polish citizenship and therefore was supposed to go to the Urząd Województwa in Kraków to present myself. For those of you in małopolskie go to:
room 354 on the 3rd floor
Urząd Województwa
ulica Basztowa 22
Krakow
It's a huge impressive old building not far from the main train station. The guy there was very very helpful and told me that the first thing I need to do (and one of the fundamentals for getting most things done in Poland regarding identity) is to get my birth certificate registered in Poland.
That is easier said than done because British birth certificates don't have all the information that goes on a Polish birth certificate. Also, I restored my Grandfather's name by Deed Poll a few years ago, and Polish law doesn't seem to recognise or have any provision for British Deed Polls.
After that it's a case of filing the application. You have to provide a passport photo and the kind of information needed for a karta pobytu such as proving you have means to live in Poland etc.. etc.. Of course you need to provide originals (with certified translations where appropriate) of all documents required to show you are of Polish descent. If you don't have originals (as in my case) then basically you just give them what you do have and explain the situation, it's then there task to investigate.
Simple cases where all documents are in order take a few months, most cases take over 2 years.
room 354 on the 3rd floor
Urząd Województwa
ulica Basztowa 22
Krakow
It's a huge impressive old building not far from the main train station. The guy there was very very helpful and told me that the first thing I need to do (and one of the fundamentals for getting most things done in Poland regarding identity) is to get my birth certificate registered in Poland.
That is easier said than done because British birth certificates don't have all the information that goes on a Polish birth certificate. Also, I restored my Grandfather's name by Deed Poll a few years ago, and Polish law doesn't seem to recognise or have any provision for British Deed Polls.
After that it's a case of filing the application. You have to provide a passport photo and the kind of information needed for a karta pobytu such as proving you have means to live in Poland etc.. etc.. Of course you need to provide originals (with certified translations where appropriate) of all documents required to show you are of Polish descent. If you don't have originals (as in my case) then basically you just give them what you do have and explain the situation, it's then there task to investigate.
Simple cases where all documents are in order take a few months, most cases take over 2 years.
27 March 2008
Apparently I'm Polish and don't know it
The other day I got a phone call from some guy in the office regarding my application for my karta pobytu. That was a nice suprise as I was wondering what was happening with it having not heard anything since applying. He asked me about my Polish looking surname. When I told him it was because my Grandfather was Polish he asked if I knew that I probably already had Polish citizenship.
What?
Yes that's right - I might already have Polish citizenship. Apparently, if you have a parent or grandparent who is/was Polish then you automatically became Polish the moment you were born whether you knew it or not, regardless of where you or your parents were born!
So today I did a bit of googling to see how this could be, and what the impact would be for me.
It seems that as long as my Grandfather didn't renounce or otherwise 'lose' his Polish citizenship, then by blood rights I too have Polish citizenship. The rules are complicated though because if your ancestors left Poland before 1962 (as my Granddad did) then there are a number of caveats.
To check whether I have citizenship or not apparently I need to do an application to my local embassy and supply documents such as birth certificates with translations and so on.
These are the links for more information:
Polish nationality law - good ol' wikipedia.
Polish Embassy in London, Citizenship info - explains exactly what the rules are
Polish Citizenship, ancestry and geneology - questions and answers from polishforums.com
This has got me thinking though - what are the advantages and disadvantages of getting Polish citizenship? I have come up with the following - let me know what you reckon:
Pros:
I am still quite suprised to discover that this could be possible and will think about it all some more before deciding if I will apply or not.
Meanwhile I have written to the UK embassy with my details to find out exactly what the process involves.
Apparently the blood line can go further back than just 2 generations - which is food for thought - who knows what citizenships you might have that you don't even know about!?!
What?
Yes that's right - I might already have Polish citizenship. Apparently, if you have a parent or grandparent who is/was Polish then you automatically became Polish the moment you were born whether you knew it or not, regardless of where you or your parents were born!
So today I did a bit of googling to see how this could be, and what the impact would be for me.
It seems that as long as my Grandfather didn't renounce or otherwise 'lose' his Polish citizenship, then by blood rights I too have Polish citizenship. The rules are complicated though because if your ancestors left Poland before 1962 (as my Granddad did) then there are a number of caveats.
To check whether I have citizenship or not apparently I need to do an application to my local embassy and supply documents such as birth certificates with translations and so on.
These are the links for more information:
Polish nationality law - good ol' wikipedia.
Polish Embassy in London, Citizenship info - explains exactly what the rules are
Polish Citizenship, ancestry and geneology - questions and answers from polishforums.com
This has got me thinking though - what are the advantages and disadvantages of getting Polish citizenship? I have come up with the following - let me know what you reckon:
Pros:
- Will be treated like a Pole whilst in Poland, therefore bureacracy should be less complicated than it is for me now with registration, buying property etc..
- Ability to get a Polish passport. Not much use to me as a Brit, but might be useful to non-EU citizens who want an easy way to get an EU passport
- No doubt applying for citizenship (or rather I should say "getting confirmation of citizenship" as these are two different applications) will be tedious, bureaucratic and time-consuming
- New legal responsibilities (for example you have to declare your nationality as Polish to the authorities when in Poland)
- Potential tax/legal issues could arise (I read about some guys who suddenly became obliged to do national service or pay taxes etc..)
- If you are involved with the armed services or areas requiring special security clearance then dual nationality can be problematic
I am still quite suprised to discover that this could be possible and will think about it all some more before deciding if I will apply or not.
Meanwhile I have written to the UK embassy with my details to find out exactly what the process involves.
Apparently the blood line can go further back than just 2 generations - which is food for thought - who knows what citizenships you might have that you don't even know about!?!
15 March 2008
How to report your marriage in Poland
How to get a "Odpis skrócony aktu małżenstwa" - Polish marriage certificate
Given that the theme of my blog is foreigners (well OK Brits) in Poland, then my razor sharp logic suggests to me that if you are reading this blog then it's quite likely that you or your spouse (if you have one) aren't Polish. Therefore there's a fair chance that you didn't get married in Poland. This means you may well have another piece of Polish bureacracy to take care of - reporting your foreign marriage!
Why?
If you are lucky you might not need to bother. If you don't need to then I suggest you save yourself the money and the hassle and don't. So by now you are surely thinking - so when would I need to? I can think of the following cases:
First of all you will need a Polish translation of your marriage certificate from a sworn translator. 1 page shouldn't cost you more than around 44 złoty. Translators for languages such as English and German can be found in every town. I know a couple who got married in Egypt. I can't imagine that there are many Arabic translators in the phone book so my practical tip for today is to avoid getting married in odd places, or to odd people, or preferably both.
Next you need to go to the Urząd Stanu Cywilnego (office of civil affairs) in the town where your spouse is permanently melded with your translation and original. My wife did this part so I can't remember what she paid for the priviledge or how long it took, but I can tell you that THEY WILL KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL so make sure you have photocopies for your own records!
Why they keep your original I don't understand. What happens if you need your original for any reason back home I don't know. I am sure there is Polish logic in there somewhere. Come to think of it, like most Polish bureacracy there probably isn't...
So now you are the proud owner of a yellow piece of A5 paper that has the summary of your wedding details on it. Unfortunately you are likely to face the following potential problems with it:
Given that the theme of my blog is foreigners (well OK Brits) in Poland, then my razor sharp logic suggests to me that if you are reading this blog then it's quite likely that you or your spouse (if you have one) aren't Polish. Therefore there's a fair chance that you didn't get married in Poland. This means you may well have another piece of Polish bureacracy to take care of - reporting your foreign marriage!
Why?
If you are lucky you might not need to bother. If you don't need to then I suggest you save yourself the money and the hassle and don't. So by now you are surely thinking - so when would I need to? I can think of the following cases:
- Your Polish wife wants to change her surname to yours.
- You want to register a newly born child in Poland as a married couple.
- You are applying for a residence card (karta pobytu) and need to demonstrate that you have a Polish spouse.
- You or your spouse want to avoid problems with the ruthless Urząd Skarbowy (treasury office) and want to report your marriage to them for financial/tax reasons.
First of all you will need a Polish translation of your marriage certificate from a sworn translator. 1 page shouldn't cost you more than around 44 złoty. Translators for languages such as English and German can be found in every town. I know a couple who got married in Egypt. I can't imagine that there are many Arabic translators in the phone book so my practical tip for today is to avoid getting married in odd places, or to odd people, or preferably both.
Next you need to go to the Urząd Stanu Cywilnego (office of civil affairs) in the town where your spouse is permanently melded with your translation and original. My wife did this part so I can't remember what she paid for the priviledge or how long it took, but I can tell you that THEY WILL KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL so make sure you have photocopies for your own records!
Why they keep your original I don't understand. What happens if you need your original for any reason back home I don't know. I am sure there is Polish logic in there somewhere. Come to think of it, like most Polish bureacracy there probably isn't...
So now you are the proud owner of a yellow piece of A5 paper that has the summary of your wedding details on it. Unfortunately you are likely to face the following potential problems with it:
- Polish wedding certificates have the places and dates of birth of the bride and groom on them. Your certificate probably doesn't (e.g. UK wedding certificates). Therefore your details will just be blanked out. This will cause you no end of problems when you try and use this document in other Polish offices. When I tried to register the birth of our daughter the woman insisted that our document must have been translated wrong and wouldn't accept it. It was only after a long phone call with the director of that office that they relented.
- Some offices won't accept this certificate once it's older than 3 months old. They expect you to go and get another one. An example is when applying for a karta pobytu. This means going back to the office holding your original wedding certificate, regardless of whether you now live on the other side of Poland because you reported your wedding X years ago and have since moved... This alone is a good argument for not bothering to report your wedding until you find you need to.
02 March 2008
Why do you keep asking me about my mother?
I don't understand it. How comes when I fill out a form they ask such odd questions:
- What level of education do I have? This is wierd - what on earth has this got to do with me registering a car? In fact they ask this one everywhere - try opening a bank account or registering the birth of your child. I can only presume it's related to the Polish obession with education.
- What is my Mother's first name? Usually followed by what is my Father's first name? Why? Are you going to send them a note if I am naughty?
- What is my Mother's maiden name? Why? Are you going to try and hack into my HSBC account now that you have all of my other personal details?
28 February 2008
Importing a motorbike
I already blogged about my attempt at importing my van - basically I couldn't. Well now having been here a bit longer and with a better grasp of Polish I am ready to tackle importing my motorbike.
Here's what I did and how long it took. I have written everything down in detail as I did it. The only thing I haven't mentioned is that the MOMENT YOU GET YOUR TEMPORARY BIKE REGISTRATION YOU ARE OBLIGED TO BUY INSURANCE THE SAME DAY. I found out the hard way - I thought that like in the UK and I presume other countries where logic and commen sense apply, you only need insurance if you want ot use the vehicle. I presumed you don't need insurance if your vehicle is just sat in the garage. NOT IN POLAND - IF YOU OWN A VEHICLE IT MUST BE INSURED even if it's off the road for 6 months. I will do another post at some time about insurance because that isn't so straight forward either...
STEP 1 - TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT- TIME TAKEN: 2 hours
The first thing I did was go to the local office for the department of transport (wydział transportu i komunikacji). I explained to the guy there what I wanted to do, which is basically register my English bike which I bought many years ago in Poland where I am now living and temporarily registered. He told me that I need:
Also now is a good time to ask where the local translator is. You will have to use an approved translator, so they should either have a list or be able to point you in the right direction. They will definitely know where the German translators are because lots of Poles import cars from Germany. Luckily for me I found an English translator was in the same street.
STEP 2 - TRANSLATION - TIME TAKEN: 45 minutes. Cost 60 zl.
Next I found the English translator to get my registration certificate translated. Had to wait 2 days to collect it and paid 60 złoty. I was charged for 1 and a half pages to do a standard V5C UK registration certificate.
STEP 3 - TREASURY DEPARTMENT VISIT 1 - TIME TAKEN: 45 minutes
Next I went to the treasury department (urząd skarbowy). Unfortunately in Poland you have to report to them everytime you borrow money, lend money, buy a car or fart. I found the department responsible for VAT and explained to them that I want to import my English bike.
They asked for my receipt from when I bought it - documents like this are extremely important in Poland, unlike the UK, where you don't need to report all financial transactions. This was my first major problem. I had to explain that I bought the bike many years ago from a friend and don't have a receipt. After a lot of head scratching and phone calls she decided that I had to return with:
Time to find a garage where I can get my technical inspection done. I did ask at the transport department but they said that almost all garages do these inspections. I asked at a local tyre shop where I know the owner and he told me about a local garage where they do technical inspections - stacja kontroli pojazdów. I went there and after scratching their heads for a bit, looking at the headlights and looking at my polish translation of my registration certificate they decided they couldn't do it because 'they don't have the data for this motorbike'. What that means exactly I don't know - maybe they don't usually do motorbikes or maybe they weren't confident about doing a foreign vehicle. They suggested another (bigger) garage locally.
So a month later with the weather having warmed up a bit more I went to the second garage. I asked the bloke if he could do an inspection on an English bike and he said sure no problem. He spent about 5 seconds looking at the bike, asked me to show him that all the lights worked and then asked me to follow him inside. To my suprise he sat there for a few minutes and then gave me two certificates:
STEP 5 - TREASURY DEPARTMENT VISIT 2 - TIME TAKEN: 1 hr. Cost 160 zl.
Went back to the treasury department with my forms filled out as best as I could. The woman at the VAT window was expecting me following my first visit there, so had been informed by her colleagues about the English guy with his motorbike and thankfully I didn't have to explain everything all over again. She was very helpful and helped me correct my forms. I had to go to a 2nd window to hand in my NIP form, then to the till window to pay a flat fee of 160 złoty. I haven't quite worked out what that fee was for, I guess for the priviledge of importing a vehicle to Poland. Also for some reason the first till window sent me to the 2nd till window (more queuing), and she did something on the computer then sent me back to the 1st till window to pay (more queuing). Where the logic is in that I don't know...
After paying I went back the the VAT window, showed her my payment receipt and she told me to come back in 2 days to collect my declaration (oświadczenie) to show I have taken care of the VAT for this vehicle.
STEP 6 - TREASURY DEPARTMENT - VISIT 3 - TIME TAKEN: 10 minutes
As instructed I went back to collect my confirmation that they are happy with the VAT for this bike and they gave me a form called a VAT-25 which they had typed up and put official looking stamps and signatures on. Suprisingly it was there waiting for me and there was no queue. Brilliant.
STEP 7 - TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT- VISIT 2 - TIME TAKEN: 1 hour. Cost 188 zl.
Went back to the transport department with all of my documents. Was told that I couldn't register the bike today because I hadn't made an appointment. Gave him a sob-story about having a little baby at home and sick wife. Was told to fill out the registration form (wniosek), go to the till and pay 188 zloty. After 15 minutes he emerged with:
STEP 8 - TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT- VISIT 3 - TIME TAKEN: 10 minutes
Got my new temporary residence certificate so returned to the transport department. I was pleasently surprised to find no queue and a helpful attendant. After just a few minutes I got my karta pojazdu and permit no problem. FINISHED!
TOTAL COST: 524 zloty and 6 hours of time
Here's what I did and how long it took. I have written everything down in detail as I did it. The only thing I haven't mentioned is that the MOMENT YOU GET YOUR TEMPORARY BIKE REGISTRATION YOU ARE OBLIGED TO BUY INSURANCE THE SAME DAY. I found out the hard way - I thought that like in the UK and I presume other countries where logic and commen sense apply, you only need insurance if you want ot use the vehicle. I presumed you don't need insurance if your vehicle is just sat in the garage. NOT IN POLAND - IF YOU OWN A VEHICLE IT MUST BE INSURED even if it's off the road for 6 months. I will do another post at some time about insurance because that isn't so straight forward either...
STEP 1 - TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT- TIME TAKEN: 2 hours
The first thing I did was go to the local office for the department of transport (wydział transportu i komunikacji). I explained to the guy there what I wanted to do, which is basically register my English bike which I bought many years ago in Poland where I am now living and temporarily registered. He told me that I need:
- Technical inspection (Badanie techniczne)
- Translation of my registration certificate into Polish (tłumaczenie dowodu rejestracyjnego)
- VAT declaration from the treasury department (zaświadcienie o zwolnienie z vatu)
- Certificate that I am registered in Poland (tymczasowe zameldowanie)
Also now is a good time to ask where the local translator is. You will have to use an approved translator, so they should either have a list or be able to point you in the right direction. They will definitely know where the German translators are because lots of Poles import cars from Germany. Luckily for me I found an English translator was in the same street.
STEP 2 - TRANSLATION - TIME TAKEN: 45 minutes. Cost 60 zl.
Next I found the English translator to get my registration certificate translated. Had to wait 2 days to collect it and paid 60 złoty. I was charged for 1 and a half pages to do a standard V5C UK registration certificate.
STEP 3 - TREASURY DEPARTMENT VISIT 1 - TIME TAKEN: 45 minutes
Next I went to the treasury department (urząd skarbowy). Unfortunately in Poland you have to report to them everytime you borrow money, lend money, buy a car or fart. I found the department responsible for VAT and explained to them that I want to import my English bike.
They asked for my receipt from when I bought it - documents like this are extremely important in Poland, unlike the UK, where you don't need to report all financial transactions. This was my first major problem. I had to explain that I bought the bike many years ago from a friend and don't have a receipt. After a lot of head scratching and phone calls she decided that I had to return with:
- form VAT-24 - this is a form about importing a vehicle from abroad and paying VAT on it (yes that's right - unlike the UK in Poland you pay VAT on second hand vehicles)
- form NIP-3 - this is a form so that I can get a Polish NIP number so that the treasury department can then keep tabs on me
- a declaration (oświadczenie) signed by me, in Polish, that I bought the bike 4 years ago in the UK where I was living, I used the bike in Poland and I brought the bike to Poland when I moved here.
Time to find a garage where I can get my technical inspection done. I did ask at the transport department but they said that almost all garages do these inspections. I asked at a local tyre shop where I know the owner and he told me about a local garage where they do technical inspections - stacja kontroli pojazdów. I went there and after scratching their heads for a bit, looking at the headlights and looking at my polish translation of my registration certificate they decided they couldn't do it because 'they don't have the data for this motorbike'. What that means exactly I don't know - maybe they don't usually do motorbikes or maybe they weren't confident about doing a foreign vehicle. They suggested another (bigger) garage locally.
So a month later with the weather having warmed up a bit more I went to the second garage. I asked the bloke if he could do an inspection on an English bike and he said sure no problem. He spent about 5 seconds looking at the bike, asked me to show him that all the lights worked and then asked me to follow him inside. To my suprise he sat there for a few minutes and then gave me two certificates:
- "Dokument Identyfikacyjny Pojazdu zarejestrowanego po raz pierwszy za granicą", meaning something along the lines of "ID document for foreign vehicle registered for the first time in Poland". It has a list of 40 technical points on it such as country of production, country of previous registration etc..
- Zaświadczenie o przeprowadzonym badaniu technicznym pojazdu which is basically the MOT certificate.
STEP 5 - TREASURY DEPARTMENT VISIT 2 - TIME TAKEN: 1 hr. Cost 160 zl.
Went back to the treasury department with my forms filled out as best as I could. The woman at the VAT window was expecting me following my first visit there, so had been informed by her colleagues about the English guy with his motorbike and thankfully I didn't have to explain everything all over again. She was very helpful and helped me correct my forms. I had to go to a 2nd window to hand in my NIP form, then to the till window to pay a flat fee of 160 złoty. I haven't quite worked out what that fee was for, I guess for the priviledge of importing a vehicle to Poland. Also for some reason the first till window sent me to the 2nd till window (more queuing), and she did something on the computer then sent me back to the 1st till window to pay (more queuing). Where the logic is in that I don't know...
After paying I went back the the VAT window, showed her my payment receipt and she told me to come back in 2 days to collect my declaration (oświadczenie) to show I have taken care of the VAT for this vehicle.
STEP 6 - TREASURY DEPARTMENT - VISIT 3 - TIME TAKEN: 10 minutes
As instructed I went back to collect my confirmation that they are happy with the VAT for this bike and they gave me a form called a VAT-25 which they had typed up and put official looking stamps and signatures on. Suprisingly it was there waiting for me and there was no queue. Brilliant.
STEP 7 - TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT- VISIT 2 - TIME TAKEN: 1 hour. Cost 188 zl.
Went back to the transport department with all of my documents. Was told that I couldn't register the bike today because I hadn't made an appointment. Gave him a sob-story about having a little baby at home and sick wife. Was told to fill out the registration form (wniosek), go to the till and pay 188 zloty. After 15 minutes he emerged with:
- Temporary vehicle permit (pozwolenie czasowe)
- My VAT-25 form with a stamp on it that it has been used to register the vehicle
- A photocopy of my UK registration certificate again with stamps on it
- A shiny new number plate!
STEP 8 - TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT- VISIT 3 - TIME TAKEN: 10 minutes
Got my new temporary residence certificate so returned to the transport department. I was pleasently surprised to find no queue and a helpful attendant. After just a few minutes I got my karta pojazdu and permit no problem. FINISHED!
TOTAL COST: 524 zloty and 6 hours of time
English cars in Poland
Last year (2007) I already tried to register my English van over here, but after spending a lot of time having friends check with local garages and having my wife call various government offices I discovered that I can't. You can't register right-hand-drive (RHD) vehicles in Poland. Don't let anyone tell you different - you will not be able to get the technical examination certificate (badanie techniczne) which you will require.
Now you might see right-hand-drive vehicles over here or know someone who knows someone who's got one. This is perfectly possible because a number of years ago you could do it if you were able to demonstrate that you had experience of driving RHD vehicles on the right of the road. But that was stopped a number of years ago (I don't know when exactly).
This seems unfair to me given that you can register LHD vehicles in the UK, or register English RHD vehicles in France, but that's the rules I'm afraid.
So if you have a car here from England you have 3 choices (to stay legal):
Now you might see right-hand-drive vehicles over here or know someone who knows someone who's got one. This is perfectly possible because a number of years ago you could do it if you were able to demonstrate that you had experience of driving RHD vehicles on the right of the road. But that was stopped a number of years ago (I don't know when exactly).
This seems unfair to me given that you can register LHD vehicles in the UK, or register English RHD vehicles in France, but that's the rules I'm afraid.
So if you have a car here from England you have 3 choices (to stay legal):
- Continue to pay your UK insurance, return once a year to do your MOT, renew your tax disc on the internet. This is the simplest solution but with two catches - the first is that insurance in the UK costs a lot. The 2nd is that technically you are not allowed to have your car here for more than 12 months. But if you return every 12 months for the MOT then the clock starts again.
- Convert your car from RHD to LHD. I don't know anyone who's done that because the cost of it probably isn't justifiable. Labour is cheap in Poland but I am sure that would still be a big garage bill, not to mention that cost of new parts (dashboard, steering rack etc..)
- Sell your car. Buy a local one.
Foreigners in Poland - registration "zameldowanie"
Thanks to Paweł from Polandian for his comments which I have used to update this blog post.
One of the biggest shocks about living in Poland for the average foreigner has got to be the bureaucracy. In fact if I have to list 3 downers about living here they would be:
Anyway the first thing you will need to do is something called registration (zameldowanie). In what seems to me like an unreasonable breach of civil liberties you are legally required to be registered to an address to live here. If you aren't registered then effectively you are just a tourist in Poland and not living here.
Many expats live in Poland for a long time and don't bother to register - I didn't until I had been here for at least 6 months. I have been told that it is legally compulsory but I don't see how the authorities have any way to check how long you've been here or whether they even care that much about it.
So why register at all? Simply because at some point you might want to work here or buy a car or rent a flat and if you aren't registered then you won't be able to.
[UPDATE - I have been assured that you don't need to be registered to rent or buy property or to work locally. You don't need to be registered to by a car but you do if you want to register it to your name in Poland]
There are two types of registration - temporary (tymczasowy) or permanent (na stałe). As foreigners we aren't currently allowed to register permanently. I know we are supposed to all be in the EU now, but it doesn't feel that way.
[UPDATE - don't listen to the voices! Apparently if you have a karta pobytu then you can indeed register permanently according to the council in gdynia]
You can register temporarily for a maximum period of 3 months. That means every 3 months you will have to re-register. I have been told that I can register for up to 5 years but to do that I have to go to Kraków and frankly I can't be bothered at the moment with the journey.
To register or re-register you will need to:
Also don't ask what happens if you don't have anyone to sign you on to their address. If you are going to be renting a flat then this will be part of the procedure (and this also gives the landlord the power to evict you very easily by revoking your registration).
[UPDATE - an authorative source tells me that you don't necessarily need your landlord or property owner with you in person - if you have written entitlement to the property than that should suffice. In my experience that didn't work at my urząd miasta, but the next time I go to re-register I will try and do it with just my legal documents and will be ready to argue!]
When you do your registration they will ask you lots of apparently random questions such as what your parent's names are. I don't know why. Maybe if you're naughty they will send a note home to them.
Finally expect a queue and to lose at least part of your day (if not all of it). That way if it only takes you an hour or so you will be pleasantly suprised rather than incredibly annoyed.
Let me know if you have anything to add, or what your experience of "zameldowanie" is like....
One of the biggest shocks about living in Poland for the average foreigner has got to be the bureaucracy. In fact if I have to list 3 downers about living here they would be:
- Unbelievable amount of bureaucracy to do anything in day to day life (register a car, buy a house, get a mobile phone, open a bank account, do anything at the post office...)
- Lack of indian and chinese take-aways.
- Did I mention the bureaucracy?
Anyway the first thing you will need to do is something called registration (zameldowanie). In what seems to me like an unreasonable breach of civil liberties you are legally required to be registered to an address to live here. If you aren't registered then effectively you are just a tourist in Poland and not living here.
Many expats live in Poland for a long time and don't bother to register - I didn't until I had been here for at least 6 months. I have been told that it is legally compulsory but I don't see how the authorities have any way to check how long you've been here or whether they even care that much about it.
So why register at all? Simply because at some point you might want to work here or buy a car or rent a flat and if you aren't registered then you won't be able to.
[UPDATE - I have been assured that you don't need to be registered to rent or buy property or to work locally. You don't need to be registered to by a car but you do if you want to register it to your name in Poland]
There are two types of registration - temporary (tymczasowy) or permanent (na stałe). As foreigners we aren't currently allowed to register permanently. I know we are supposed to all be in the EU now, but it doesn't feel that way.
[UPDATE - don't listen to the voices! Apparently if you have a karta pobytu then you can indeed register permanently according to the council in gdynia]
You can register temporarily for a maximum period of 3 months. That means every 3 months you will have to re-register. I have been told that I can register for up to 5 years but to do that I have to go to Kraków and frankly I can't be bothered at the moment with the journey.
To register or re-register you will need to:
- personally go during office hours (usually 8am - 4pm Mon-Fri) to the local town hall (urząd gmina) and find the office where they do registrations (zameldowanie).
- take your passport
- take with you the landlord or owner of the address at which you need to register - they need to sign that they agree for you to live there
- take with you someone who speaks Polish if neither of you do. Don't expect anyone to speak English, but be suprised if they do.
Also don't ask what happens if you don't have anyone to sign you on to their address. If you are going to be renting a flat then this will be part of the procedure (and this also gives the landlord the power to evict you very easily by revoking your registration).
[UPDATE - an authorative source tells me that you don't necessarily need your landlord or property owner with you in person - if you have written entitlement to the property than that should suffice. In my experience that didn't work at my urząd miasta, but the next time I go to re-register I will try and do it with just my legal documents and will be ready to argue!]
When you do your registration they will ask you lots of apparently random questions such as what your parent's names are. I don't know why. Maybe if you're naughty they will send a note home to them.
Finally expect a queue and to lose at least part of your day (if not all of it). That way if it only takes you an hour or so you will be pleasantly suprised rather than incredibly annoyed.
Let me know if you have anything to add, or what your experience of "zameldowanie" is like....
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